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Offline Lowrance

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2017, 08:22:24 PM »
*Originally Posted by miles [+]

Don't get me wrong- automatic knob-twiddling systems like the Ohlins can work very well and can be externally adjusted too, which is a good thing.
They are still essentially old-school, though.  DDC is an innately more sophisticated system and is really the next generation.  The comparison is actually along the lines of the best of the last, well-developed system vs the first of the new concept which has yet to be perfected.
At this point, the development of DDC will be all about the software, and that will be developed continually with experience and time.
Our complaints with DDC are all typical early-adopter issues, and also a learning curve (both ours as riders and the engineers as developers) as we all collectively figure it out.

The R1M has Ohlins' semi-active suspension (very similar to DDC).  The main difference is you have the ability to turn off the semi-active feature and use it as pseudo traditional suspension.
Why is common sense so uncommon?

Offline Clivescoobydo

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2017, 08:38:27 PM »
*Originally Posted by Ozla [+]
The Big Bang engine is like having sex with a condom...sure you're still getting an acceptable ride...but the sensation is not all it could be..
You obviously haven't ridden a 2009 onwards R1 :182: that motor is sensational.  Smooth as and torque from way down the Rev range. It's perfect for the road and sounds unbelievable with akra's on the overrun. My s1Kr motor sound awful by comparison tbh but that's not its strength. I've a 2013 banger and ridden the MT10 and you cannot compare them at all.
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Offline Ozla

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2017, 08:49:28 PM »
*Originally Posted by Clivescoobydo [+]
You obviously haven't ridden a 2009 onwards R1 :182: that motor is sensational.  Smooth as and torque from way down the Rev range. It's perfect for the road and sounds unbelievable with akra's on the overrun. My s1Kr motor sound awful by comparison tbh but that's not its strength. I've a 2013 banger and ridden the MT10 and you cannot compare them at all.
I have ridden a Big Bang R1 hence my comment...the bike was quick...the sensation from the engine was numb...I stand by my "Condom engine " comment
I owned a 2003 20 valve R1...I also owned a 2007 16 valve R1...both bikes were fantastic...I test rode the 2009 Big Bang and decided almost instantly I wouldn't buy one. Each to their own as they say.

I think the S1000R engine sounds fantastic...especially in the higher rev range...it rips.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 08:51:26 PM by Ozla »

Offline Clivescoobydo

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 08:57:30 PM »
*Originally Posted by Ozla [+]
I have ridden a Big Bang R1 hence my comment...the bike was quick...the sensation from the engine was numb...I stand by my "Condom engine " comment
I owned a 2003 20 valve R1...I also owned a 2007 16 valve R1...both bikes were fantastic...I test rode the 2009 Big Bang and decided almost instantly I wouldn't buy one. Each to their own as they say.

I think the S1000R engine sounds fantastic...especially in the higher rev range...it rips.

The 09-12 model (14B) can be a difficult bike, the 13 (14BE traction control)-onwards is really sorted, smooth off the throttle etc makes the s1Kr feel uneven (even though it isn't). Each to their own  :028:
Never ride faster than your guardian angel 😇

Offline nrthrnbkr

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2017, 10:34:18 PM »
The new R6 is going to be 11k ....! I think secondhand bikes and upgrades will become even more popular !

Offline miles

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2017, 12:06:03 AM »
*Originally Posted by Lowrance [+]
The R1M has Ohlins' semi-active suspension (very similar to DDC).  The main difference is you have the ability to turn off the semi-active feature and use it as pseudo traditional suspension.



It isn't like the DDC at all.  It's semi-active, yes, but it's still a knob-twiddler design.  It's just a traditional shock with an external device that adjusts compression and rebound as it reacts to conditions.

The DDC is a completely different concept- the actual damper device itself is directly electronically controlled. 


Read this: http://www.sportrider.com/active-versus-semi-active-suspension#page-2
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 12:08:32 AM by miles »
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Offline Lowrance

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2017, 12:31:45 AM »
Sorry...you are correct and I should've been more clear in my response.  The DDC semi-active set-up has an internal electro-magnetically controlled valve which cannot be altered in any way other than with software changes.  The Ohlins semi-active suspension has a traditional valve stack that can be altered with traditional valving techniques....which I personally consider superior...at the moment anyway.

If BMW ever release their proprietary code to suspension tuners I can see the potential for much more tunable DDC characteristics allowing settings to be developed which will suit a much wider range of riders and riding styles.

Cheers.
Why is common sense so uncommon?

Offline ampj8

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2017, 12:56:35 PM »
Now we have this clear.
For road riding either system makes little difference.

For race track for sure Ohlins will be a better option. Now how good this Ohlins implementation is on the mt10-SP? Remains a question. Already the front is very light on the normal model compared with the S1KR more front biased. I think it is better naked for ocasional track racing at the moment. SP will see....

Offline Ozla

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2017, 01:54:03 PM »
The Semi Active suspension on the R is superb. It works on most conditions...no suspension works in all conditions.

Offline miles

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Re: MT10-SP priced on the range of a fully spec'ed S1000R
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2017, 04:08:50 PM »
*Originally Posted by Lowrance [+]
Sorry...you are correct and I should've been more clear in my response.  The DDC semi-active set-up has an internal electro-magnetically controlled valve which cannot be altered in any way other than with software changes.  The Ohlins semi-active suspension has a traditional valve stack that can be altered with traditional valving techniques....which I personally consider superior...at the moment anyway.

If BMW ever release their proprietary code to suspension tuners I can see the potential for much more tunable DDC characteristics allowing settings to be developed which will suit a much wider range of riders and riding styles.

Cheers.


The basic complaint that racers have with DDC on the track is that the engineers developing the system have different opinions about what's desirable than the racers do. An example is the turn-entry "vagueness" racers universally don't like.
What is really going on is that the DDC is keeping the fork from dropping to the bottom of the stroke. A racer is used to planting the bike on its nose to aid turn-in and is accustomed to the feeling of having no travel left, as the fork is typically bottomed out (or very nearly so).
The engineers, though, look at the situation of a fork being bottomed going into a turn and say "Well, that's terrible. A rider still needs suspension in a turn." So they engineer it to not bottom out. This is undoubtedly safer, but it isn't what a racer is used to.
It's a lot like the complaints that racers had about the alternative front suspension designs BMW had on its bikes for a while.

Unfortunately* BMW doesn't make available a kit system for tuning the DDC they way they do with the engine and TC management, which means that you get what you get. If you're really sensitive and very set in your ways (and most racers are both) then you want it the way you want it, and any other way is not going to work for you.









* Or maybe it's a good thing. I have to imagine that most "tuners" would screw it up rather than improve it.

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Kiss your fist and touch the sky

 


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